Byron, official first son-in-law of NewMexiKen, has written some thoughtful and provocative comments, which I repeat here in full. While I don’t agree with everything he says (and remind him that this site is billed as “Half Wisdom · Half Whimsy · Half Wit” and that no one should take NewMexiKen seriously except me), I do think what he has to say deserves your attention.
Here I go again: I am sure I will get blasted for this, go ahead. Just trying to do the right thing.
So to start off, I voted for Bush. I am probably the only member of Ken’s family (extended or otherwise that did). I could list a ton of reasons why I voted for him (and a ton why I shouldn’t have). But, I can’t think of one reason why I should have voted for Kerry. He never gave me any and neither did any of you. I am not alone.
I understand that I am an outsider and a guest to this forum. But,as I read this website, I am shocked by some of the comments and quite frankly the content that drives them.(Sorry,Ken)
John asked: “Why do Republicans hate what they do not understand?” I think the same thing could be asked of everyone who has posted here for the last few days. Apparently, according to this site, if you voted for Bush you are:
a moron (thanks, Debby and Ken)
a tyrant (thanks, John)
a homophobe, a thief, against the environment, etcI am consistently offended by much of the language here. I usually keep my mouth shut. I point it out, today, because I think it mirrors THE problem in our country. We are the only ones who can fix it, right nearlynormalnorman?
I come here, and other places, to see and hear the other side. Try to understand your positions and what I am missing. I haven’t seen enough to know why you support your positions. Typically it’s a post about some conservative thing and then a comment about how all Republicans eat babies or something like that. None of you are trying to change my mind. All you are doing is putting me in a defensive posture with no alternative other than to support my position.
Where was the discussion about Kerry’s Health Plan, Social Security, Education, etc? Where was the discussion about anything of substance? Nowhere, it was nothing but mudslinging. And then to turn around and suggest that the only people guilty are the Republicans? All of you who contributed to that should be ashamed. After all, you voted for Kerry, you’re smarter than that.
Go out and read stuff from people that you disagree with. I come here every day. I read Anna Quindlen’s column in Newsweek every other week. Every time I want to write her and tell her how wrong she is. Funny thing, though, this week she seemed to be close to the mark. Maybe my letters are working 🙂
The Democrats lost because they had the wrong candidate. Therefore, aren’t the Democrats “morons” for picking a liberal Senator from the Northeast? Who was the last Senator to win the Presidency? Wasn’t that 44 yeats ago? Apparently, that curse is bigger than the Redskin one. Kerry turned out to be unelectable. How else could he have lost this election? Either side picks a moderate and they win 60% of the popular vote.
But, I will not name call here (just using your words, sorry). If you know someone who voted for Bush, find out why and stop calling him names. Maybe it makes you feel better to think that you are superior to the rest of the country, but it doesn’t make your vote count twice. At the very least, take the time to confirm your superiority.
It seems to me, that all we learned in the election is that when faced with two extreme candidates, right now the country leans to the right.
Thanks for letting me get this off my chest. I wouldn’t come here to try and learn if I didn’t respect the people that I know contribute to the site. I know that I’m preaching a little, up on the soapbox. How can we expect more from our parties when we don’t lead by example?
Resume the battle of words if you want. Blast me back in a post, that’s fine. You may feel better about yourself, or your position, but it won’t have changed a thing other than make me and fifty-nine million other people dig in a little more.
In closing, I apoligize to my wife. First of all, she has to live with me. Second, she tried to explain my political beliefs in a previous post. She failed. I am a libertarian with strong fiscal conservative beliefs. There are a lot of us in the Republican party. They used to call us Rockefeller Republicans. Now, I guess were a bunch of bigoted, uninformed Nazis.
P.S. This goes both ways, Jim.
Well said, Byron.
While I don’t agree with your decision, it appears you at least took the time to look at the other sides point of view. I applaud that initiative, and must say it’s not something I’ve seen a lot of this year.
I began with an “anybody but Bush” attitude, but after much research came to believe that Kerry was, while not the best, certainly a better man for the job.
Of course politics is a nasty business and now that the country has made it’s decision we’ll all have to live with it. I’m afraid for my children and for the future of my country. All I can say is I hope you were right and I was wrong.
Thanks for sharing your point of view.
Dear Byron,
Just because we disagree with Bush voters, or think they are uninformed and go through life with blinders in place, does not mean we hate them. To the contrary, we love them, and you.
It is either na?ve, or pretentious for you to assume that none of us read anything from the ?other side.? We simply do not post such nonsense. How can one structure an informed opinion without reading from varied sources? The difference is, we read from sources other than American corporate mainstream media and then form an opinion, rather than having someone else dictate our opinion for us.
Forthrightly, I never said a Bush voter is a tyrant, rather, George Bush is a tyrant, and his voters endorse this behavior. The fact of the matter is many of the Bush Christian Right do hate what they do not understand. Xenophobia and homophobia are just the tip of the iceberg.
How can a Libertarian support the reduction of civil liberties? How can a Libertarian support the overturn of Roe v Wade? Why would a Libertarian endorse the repeal of the Freedom of Information Act? How can a Libertarian support a secular Christian agenda? I listened to Michael Badnarik on many occasions. Your Libertarian candidate for President of the United States certainly does not agree with what Bush has done, and plans to do in most aspects of the Bush agenda? If you are a Libertarian, why don’t you vote Libertarian? Call yourself what you are Byron, a Republican.
What are your children and my great nephews going to do for clean air and water, Byron? The environmental record of Bush in Texas and as President is to say the least, scandalous. Even President Reagan and GHW Bush extended the wilderness in this great country, yet your man has vowed to contract it and I do not mean simply shrink it. I will not even get into the energy policy that encourages consumption.
What is incredibly lucid to me, beyond the shadow of a doubt, is that there was absolutely, never any reason to vote for Bush and tons or reasons to vote for John Kerry.
Go, Byron, I applaud your sincere effort to reach out to the other side. You, at least, have made an honest attempt to explain your feelings and your politics. Far too many Bush supporters are not willing to do so, in fact, they seem more inclined to explain nothing and act as if they own our Democracy. This country is deeply divided. No one is willing to listen to what their opponents have to say. While neither Party has a monopoly on bigotry, intolerance, and hypocrisy, it seems only the Republican Party is trying to make them institutional standards. Far too many Republicans have corrupted Christian ideals and ignore the goal of taking care of the least fortunate among us. Forget about Socialism and Entitlement, feed the hungry, heel the sick. Compassion isn’t merely something you talk about, it’s how you live. It’s no secret that I think the Bush administration is filled with lying criminals and indebted to corrupt corporations. Throw in the hypocrisy of self-righteous, religious zealots and you have a recipe for trouble. Based on what I read, see, and know, Byron, you will never convince me Bush has been, or will be, good for this country. I have just voted in my ninth Presidential election as an Independent. I have no Party loyalty for good reasons. No election has ever been a matter of Right versus Left for me, I am always more concerned about right versus wrong. For the record, I depise Bush, but I also think Clinton is a shameless weasel. Keep posting, Byron, your words are welcome on my computer. I suspect, though we disagree on this point, over a beer or a cup of coffee, we’d get along just fine.
John,
Thanks for making my point.
I am proud to be a Republican. I never said I was a Libertarian, I said I was a libertarian. And I Rockefeller Republican at that.
Dear proud Rockefeller Republican,
How can someone with strong fiscal conservative beliefs vote for such a fiscally irresponsible person as George Bush?
Seriously, Byron, believe what you want, that is what makes the world go around and certainly, do not feel your comments are not welcome. If you feel I have attacked you personally, alas,that was not my intent. Although, it is true we disagree politically, it does not mean I hate you or any other person just because they disagree with my socialistic political viewpoint. The Best Man at my wedding makes you seem like Dennis Kucinich. I do not hate him, but we do argue about politics. We do however, share many other things that bond our friendship.
As you are well aware, our family is an opinionated bunch. We never shy away from a good debate. One thing I will say, however, is that we are an informed group.
How ?bout those Mets.
Peace
As a heterosexual you’ve never had to feel that most of the country wants you in a concentration camp. How nice for you.
As a heterosexual you’ve never had to feel that most of the country wants you in a concentration camp. How nice for you; and may you never have to feel it. I wish I didn’t
Byron-
Over 40 years, I have been told to my face by more than one Republican that I am part of “what’s wrong with this country.” I guess “traitor” isn’t as insulting as “moron.”
“Rockefeller Republican” — boy that takes me back. That would qualify you for endangered species status, except that just some crap used by treehuggers and feminazis to fight progress. I wonder if anyone has called you a RINO to your face? They surely are saying it behind your back — and actively working to expel you (really, I’ve heard it from self-professed RINO hunters — Republican In Name Only).
If you believe your vote is your voice, I hope you will speak to your party about restraint. I expect you’ll find them deaf. To paraphrase Goldwater only slightly, ‘Extremism in the defense of power is no vice.’
Historians remind us of terrible acrimony going back at least as far as Jefferson vs Adams. However, the relentless, ruthless assault of the Republicans on Clinton — the gleeful paralyzing of any Progressive accomplishments — did much to set the tone for years to come. You reap what you sow.
“Kerry turned out to be unelectable. How else could he have lost this election?”
Unelected and unelectable are not the same thing. 55.5 Million people voted for Kerry; more than for the winner of any prior race. Meanwhile, 70+ million eligible voters did NOT vote. Where’s the mandate?
I believe Bush won, in part, because many decent non-morons trust and believe him, and he is willing to misuse that misplaced trust.
“It seems to me, that all we learned in the election is that when faced with two extreme candidates, right now the country leans to the right.”
Absolutely true. Especially when the Right equates itself with everything good and holy and the Left with everything wrong and evil.
Ultimately, a country that believes in justice, equality, freedom and progress (versus regress or stagnation) can’t be called conservative — it’s revolutionary and always will be.
Finally, let me say Kerry was hardly liberal by my standard. And I’m a hard-working, property-owning, tax paying, middle-aged white guy who has been with my wife for 23 years. I resent Bush’s conscious effort to use unchangeable divisions to hold power. That’s hardly moronic nor is it moral — it’s craven.
peace,
mjh
http://www.DumpBushBlog.com
Since you linked to that infamous map about Red and Blue places, you might enjoy this map, which shows a nice matchup between places that allowed slavery and today’s Red areas:
http://www.bopnews.com/archives/002316.html#2316
As anyone who follows political history knows, the South fled the Democratic Party when the Civil Rights Laws were passed. I know, they claimed it was because they supported “state’s rights” but we know the real reason.
Now we have other states deserting the Democratic Party because of gay rights. There is again a big cry for “state’s rights.” Why do you think that is?
The Republican Party is an extremist, bigoted, narrow-minded entity today that preys upon people’s fears of terrorism and those unlike themselves. They dangle visions of a “tax free” Eden in front of greedy people and those who are suffering more from wage stagnation than high taxes. Republican “leaders” like Pat Robertson and his phony ilk even blame 9-11 on gay people and “feminists” and “libruls.” Gee I wonder why we have an attitude.
You may see yourself as a Rockefeller Republican but no such Party exists today. The Republican Party of “freetraders,” neocons and religious extremists sells Bush as a messenger of god, bankrupting the US government as a way to finally do away with our social safety net and outsourcing of all our good-paying jobs with benefits to the lowest bidder.
I know what I supported about Kerry’s positions, most of which can be boiled down to “common sense” and pragmatism in the face of a complicated set of problems. Bush, on the other hand, offered only platitudes and black and white thinking on every single issue, whether domestic or related to foreign policy.
How anyone that claims to be fairly intelligent, fair-minded and practical could support the distorted and simplistic “solutions” offered by Bush is beyond me.
Admit it, many of you would vote for a dog if the pooch offered lower taxes.
Barb,
Thanks for making my point. Me and the rest of my crew (White House, Senate, House of Representatives) are buying dog bones and digging in a little deeper.
Also, I never claimed to be intelligent. Ask anyone, I am really not that bright.
Bright enough to marry my beautiful and brilliant niece!
Dear Byron,
Thanks for making our point.
Well, of course I have to chime in here. That’s who I am. First of all, apologies about the moron crack–it was not aimed at thinking people like you. It was in reference to the “Salt of the Earth” type people who voted from an emotional point of view–one which is not based in any scientific reality whatsoever. I didn’t mean to insinuate that everyone who votes Republican is a moron, but there were far more than enough of them in the above catagory to swing this election. I refer to the sort of people who believe it’s OK to use up the environment without regard to the future, because they will be called up in the Rapure soon, anyway. So why bother to take care of the planet– after all, God directed them to “Go out and gain dominion over the Earth.” I refer to people who believe that the issues most important to our nation are religious ones such gay marriage, stem cell research, and abortion–people who want to mandate morality as they see it, with total disregard to the fact that many people do not share their version of morality or even what constitutes spirituality. I refer to people who adamantly maintain that we are a nation founded on Christian values, even though our nation was historically founded by people who made it absolutely clear that they were NOT motivated by Christian values, but rather, were operating on the principles of separation of Church and State. I refer to the people who believe, as George W. Bush himself believes, that God talks to GWB and directs him–behavior that to some medical experts would be considered a serious mental disease. In fact, people high up in his own party have expressed intense concern about his religious zealotry. Many of the people I called morons (with tongue in cheek) did not take the trouble to learn anything about Bush’s (or Kerry’s) policies on the environment, education, health care, Social Security, jobs, economics, our skyrocketing national debt, individual civil rights, the truth about 9-11 or Iraq, etc. They learned what little they know from 60-second sound bites and outright lies continually presented to them by TV and radio stations across the nation that are mostly run by staunch Republican supporters. (They are Republican supporters because that’s the party that gives them what they want in trade.) I agree that Democrats missed the boat on the most important issues–they squandered their time fighting back on the emotional bullshit because they kept getting backed into the corner about their integrity. The most vital issues got sucked in under Karl Rove’s monstrous campaign machine and never saw the light of day. We should have been talking about the fact that Democracy is at risk in too many ways that I find really scary (Patriot Act, etc.). That health care is out of the reach of far too many Americans, particularly children. That wages are lower (compared to cost of living) and jobs more scarce than they have been in many decades, that the current administration is gutting the environment, etc., etc., etc. John Kerry wasn’t my first choice for a candidate. I was more of an ABB person (Anyone But Bush). But I believed Kerry was still more likely to show honest regard for our citizens and environment for the next four years than Bush. I have been a political essayist for a long time (I used to get paid for writing a regular column) and I make it a point to know what is going on in our government and how it effects us. I do not think that a lot of the Red-Staters or Bush supporters elsewhere do/did that. (Incidentally did make a point to talk to them and hear about their positions.) These folks were whipped into an emotional frenzy by the Rightousness Police, and if they ever figure out what hit them, let’s just hope it’s not too late. I, for one, have done my best to accept our fate (although I still maintain doubts as to the legitimacy/accuracy of the vote as reported), and I look forward to the future, hoping that there won’t be too much irreversible damage done in the interim. I hope that people will wake up and smell the smog, unemployment, and lack of health care in time to vote the legislature back into some semblance of balance two years from now. Still, I grieve for our future, and most especially for our global status. By all the most accurate reports they’ve been able to gather, we’ve already killed around 100,000 Iraqis in the name of liberating them. (Well, I guess death is one form of liberation.) We did the same thing to them in the 1980’s. I do not think this bodes well for us. We are breeding terrorists in numbers we can only imagine, and had better fear. (As much as I hate fear-mongering, sometimes paranoia isn’t paranoia if people are really after you, and we are giving them more and more reasons to hate us every day.) We aren’t winning any War on Terrorism here, we are throwing barrels of gasoline on the fire. And though many skeptics think our president is there for oil… however much of an incentive that may be, there is a religious agenda at work here, too. And that alone, would be reason enough for me to want him out of office. He’s a puppet whose strings are being pulled by some very dangerous people. And it is our children and grandchildren who will suffer most for it.
Running up the largest deficit in our nation’s history in an unbelieveably short amount af time doesn’t sound very fiscally conservative to me.
Debby, will you marry me? Wait a second, hold on… Nevermind, just checked with my long suffering wife…she suggested it WOULD NOT be a good idea…
This has been a pretty good exchange. I don’t think either side will change the other’s mind, but discussing it beats a brick to the head. Now, if we can just get the rest of the country talkin’…
I have also enjoyed the interchange of ideas, sparked by Byron’s initial comments, and I thank him for getting it going. I love a good debate, and it would be woefully boring if we all agreed on everything.
P.S.to NNN–Thanks for the nice thoughts. My hubby of 25 years probably wouldn’t like it either, and I doubt if any of us want to move to Utah. Meanwhile, I have always enjoyed your comments on NMK.
I do note that Byron never really answered people’s responses to him, preferring to say only that we made or proved his point. If I state facts about what the Republican Party and Bush have been saying and doing, I think that proves only that I have a case. One that hasn’t been responded to yet.
Yes, enjoy the bones of “mandate” (or is Bush referring to a “man-date,” something I never thought he was attracted to given his utter disdain for love that isn’t his kind of love). I will enjoy seeing the neocon/fundie Xtian/no-taxes-on-me coalition finally have to own up to the reality of the problems we face and try to solve them with platitides and swagger. Unfortunately, many will die and the planet will further depleted and people will continue to lose their health care, but in the end I think this will prove to be the perfect situation to completely discredit this approach at last.
Barb,
Couple of things:
1) I have a business to run and a family to spend time with so I can’t spend a lot of time here.
2) I never said there was a mandate. I said the country was leaning a little right.
3) You saPOSTID: “The Republican Party is an extremist, bigoted, narrow-minded entity today that preys upon people’s fears of terrorism and those unlike themselves.”
That’s a great argument. I applaud your debate skills. What do you believe in besides common sense?
Again, thanks for making my point. Keep calling us names, keep pushing us further to the right. The backlash is only going to hurt the country more.
It’s been fun, but I am going to go away, before a civil war erupts. Blue vs Red.
You can run but you can’t hide. I thought the Right’s slogan was, “bring ’em on.”
Too bad Bryon quit; he never even thanked me for making his point.
Dead Man Blogging: Dick Armey Speaks out on Liberals
“Liberals are in my estimation just not bright people. They don’t think deeply; they don’t comprehend; they don’t understand. … They have a narrow educational base, as opposed to the hard scientists,” Armey said.
http://www.DumpBushBlog.com
mjh,
I didn’t quit. I have a business to run. Also, I think what I wanted to do worked. Sort of. Kinda. Maybe not. Who cares, at least I tried.
Ken owes me $50 for driving a thread that actually made it to more than 20 comments.
Also, you didn’t prove or make my point. I don’t agree with you, but I respect your opinion and appreciate the fact that you gave a considered response.
Byron- I do appreciate that you tried and I hope you realize that many who responded here are also trying (and you know we are in a lot more pain than you are). Unfortunately, trying once or a dozen times isn’t going to suffice. If one conservative trades posts with a half a dozen liberals in one thread, that doesn’t really take us anywhere (which isn’t meant to disparage anyone’s efforts or participation).
Besides, though you are “conservative” and a Republican, you yourself say you’re not part of the Radical Right. The Radical Right — the UNconservative neo-conservatives — holds the power today. I imagine you are more comfortable with that fact than I am — well, if we can even agree that is a fact.
What is your response to that Dick Armey quote? I’m sure you can counter with an intemperate quote from a liberal, but I’d rather hear what you think about all these years of Rush Limbaugh, et.al. Is what you’ve read and heard here really worse?
peace,
mjh
PS- For the record, I have a business to run, too. And a family. We probably have more things in common.
mjh,
To start with, I was not suggesting that you or anyone else didn’t have other things to do. E-mail (posts) are a horrific form of communication and often misunderstood. So, sorry for the apparent implication that I am far busier than any of you. I am actually the world’s best procrastinator and it caught up with me.
As for Dick Armey: I read through the attached thread and couldn’t find the entire transcript. So,I don’t really understand the context of the quote. If I had a thought, it was that the comment was useless. If the purpose of something is to alienate or hurt someone else, then why do it? (Maybe, it gives you a sense of power?)I always thought Armey was funny. At times he was on point and message and other times he said things like this.
Either way, he is gone. And so is Ashcroft. Are you happy or scared? This is Bush’s chance to extend the ol’ olive branch.
I could fill a website with intemperate quotes from the left and right made in the last three days. The world is full of assholes. The trick is making sure you don’t position yourself below them.
As for Rush, etc: I listened to Rush in college, often. I remember thinking that finally somebody was saying a lot of things that I agreed with (and a bunch that I didn’t). I couldn’t hear that anywhere else. I haven’t listened to Rush in ten years and probably wouldn’t chose to. Ultimately, the rhetoric from people on a website is bound to be more aggressive than the language from a “personality”.
Lastly, “If one conservative trades posts with a half a dozen liberals in one thread, that doesn’t really take us anywhere (which isn’t meant to disparage anyone’s efforts or participation).”
Every day you may make progress. Every step may be fruitful. Yet there will stretch out before you an ever-lengthening, ever-ascending, ever-improving path. You know you will never get to the end of the journey. But this, so far from discouraging, only adds to the joy and glory of the climb. -Churchill
Every step counts. Every effort matters. Especially if you half a dozen liberals convince thirty-six people to change the tone. Not your position, just change the tone.
Bravo, Byron. Besides being a good cook (so I read), you also are a good writer.
Compassionate Conservative Quote of the Day:
“The National Orgainzation for Women Litmus Test. You have to be sexually amoral, scorn religion and embrace abortion. But mostly you have to be a Democrat.”
Building bridges every day, every way. Peace! mjh